Capitalisn't

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Is capitalism the engine of destruction or the engine of prosperity? On this podcast we talk about the ways capitalism is—or more often isn’t—working in our world today. Hosted by Vanity Fair contributing editor, Bethany McLean and world renowned economics professor Luigi Zingales, we explain how capitalism can go wrong, and what we can do to fix it.

Cover photo attributions: https://www.chicagobooth.edu/research/stigler/about/capitalisnt.

If you would like to send us feedback, suggestions for guests we should bring on, or connect with Bethany and Luigi, please email: contact at capitalisnt dot com. If you like our show, we'd greatly appreciate you giving us a rating or a review. It helps other listeners find us too.

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Recent Hosts, Guests & Topics

Here's a quick summary of the last 5 episodes on Capitalisn't.

Hosts

Bethany McLean Luigi Zingales

Previous Guests

Rose Chan Loui
Rose Chan Loui is the founding executive director of the Lowell Milken Center on Philanthropy and Nonprofits at UCLA Law. She has a strong background in nonprofit management and philanthropy, and is known for her work in exploring the intersection of corporate governance and charitable organizations. Rose is also a co-author of the paper 'Board Control of a Charity's Subsidiaries: The Saga of OpenAI,' which discusses the complexities of nonprofit governance in the context of OpenAI's transition to a for-profit model.
Curtis Yarvin
Curtis Yarvin is a software engineer and political theorist known for his controversial views on governance and society. He is a leading figure in the Dark Enlightenment movement, which critiques modern democracy and advocates for a return to authoritarian governance structures. Yarvin has written extensively on the subject, proposing ideas such as the breakup of the nation-state into smaller, corporate-controlled city-states. His work has gained attention in political and tech circles, particularly for its influence on figures in Silicon Valley.
JD Vance
J.D. Vance is an American author, venture capitalist, and politician. He gained national recognition for his memoir 'Hillbilly Elegy,' which discusses his upbringing in a working-class family in Ohio. Vance has served as a U.S. Senator from Ohio and is known for his views on social issues and economic policy, often advocating for the interests of the working class. His political career has been marked by a focus on the intersection of technology and traditional values.
Steve Bannon
Steve Bannon is an American political strategist, media executive, and former investment banker. He served as the chief strategist for President Donald Trump during his first year in office. Bannon is known for his role in the alt-right movement and his advocacy for populist and nationalist policies. He has been a controversial figure in American politics, often associated with the promotion of conspiracy theories and anti-establishment rhetoric.
Peter Thiel
Peter Thiel is a billionaire entrepreneur, venture capitalist, and political activist. He co-founded PayPal and was an early investor in Facebook. Thiel is known for his libertarian views and has been a vocal supporter of various controversial political movements. He has also been involved in several tech startups and is recognized for his influence in Silicon Valley, particularly in discussions around technology's role in society and governance.
Marc Andreessen
Marc Andreessen is an American entrepreneur, investor, and software engineer, best known for co-founding Netscape, one of the first web browsers. He is a prominent figure in Silicon Valley and a co-founder of the venture capital firm Andreessen Horowitz. Andreessen has been influential in the tech industry and is known for his insights on technology, innovation, and the future of the internet. He has also engaged in discussions about the intersection of technology and politics.
Sam Peltzman
Sam Peltzman is the Ralph and Dorothy Keller Distinguished Service Professor Emeritus of Economics at the University of Chicago's Booth School of Business. He is recognized as perhaps the leading living expert on the economics of regulation. Peltzman has also served as the director emeritus of the Stigler Center, which is named after his mentor, Nobel-Prize laureate George Stigler. His work focuses on the implications of regulation and deregulation in various sectors, including health care and finance.
Nicholas Dirks
Nicholas Dirks is an academic leader and former Chancellor of the University of California, Berkeley, serving from 2013 to 2017. He is known for his deep experience in higher education debates and has authored the book 'City of Intellect: The Uses and Abuses of the University.' His work often focuses on the challenges facing modern universities, including issues of governance, funding, and the impact of political actions on higher education.
Yoni Appelbaum
Yoni Appelbaum is the Deputy Editor at The Atlantic, where he covers a range of topics including politics, culture, and social issues. He is known for his insightful analysis and commentary on American society and has written extensively on the challenges facing homeownership and mobility in the United States. Appelbaum's recent book, 'Stuck: How the Privileged in the Propertied Broke the Engine of American Opportunity,' explores the complexities of the American Dream and the barriers to homeownership, particularly for young professionals. His work emphasizes the importance of mobility and the implications of reduced opportunities for Americans' faith in capitalism.

Topics Discussed

capitalism nonprofits OpenAI AI for humanity profit vs purpose corporate governance philanthropy Sam Altman Elon Musk lawsuit Silicon Valley Dark Enlightenment Donald Trump political philosophy authoritarian city-states accelerationism artificial intelligence Freedom Cities deregulation laissez-faire capitalism economics of regulation COVID-19 vaccine cryptocurrencies Silicon Valley Bank climate change Trump's war on universities research funding higher education free speech diversity initiatives university governance fundraising homeownership American Dream mobility housing crisis Yoni Appelbaum opportunity

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Stigler Center
@StiglerCenter

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Subscribers: 5,620
Total Videos: 423
Total Views: 496,393
Joined: Mar 7, 2016
Location: United States

Description

At the intersection of politics and the economy.

Nobel laureate George J. Stigler founded the Center for the Study of the Economy and the State at the University of Chicago in 1977. From its inception, the Center has been a joint enterprise of economists and legal scholars. We organize events, run a podcast (Capitalisn't), a publication (ProMarket), and engage with academics, policymakers, and the public at large.

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@capital_isnt
Capitalisn't Podcast

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Biography

Luigi Zingales & Bethany McLean discuss ways capitalism is—or more often isn’t—working in our world today. Part of @StiglerCenter & @UChicago Podcasts

Episodes

Here's the recent few episodes on Capitalisn't.

0:00 47:35

Profit or Purpose? OpenAI's $300 Billion Question, with Rose Chan Loui

Hosts
Bethany McLean Luigi Zingales
Guests
Rose Chan Loui
Keywords
capitalism nonprofits OpenAI AI for humanity profit vs purpose corporate governance philanthropy Sam Altman Elon Musk lawsuit

All too often, capitalism is identified with the for-profit sector. However, one organizational form whose importance is often overlooked is nonprofits. Roughly 4% of the American economy, including most universities and hospital systems, are nonprofit.

One prominent nonprofit currently at the center of a raging debate is OpenAI, the $300 billion American artificial intelligence research organization best known for developing ChatGPT. Founded in 2015 as a donation-based nonprofit with a mission to build AI for humanity, it created a complex “hybrid capped profit” governance structure in 2019. Then, after a dramatic firing and re-hiring of CEO Sam Altman in 2023 (covered on an earlier episode of Capitalisn’t: “Who Controls AI?”), a new board of directors announced that achieving OpenAI’s mission would require far more capital than philanthropic donations could provide and initiated a process to transition to a for-profit public benefit corporation. This process has been fraught with corporate drama, including one early OpenAI investor, Elon Musk, filing a lawsuit to stop the process and launching a $97.4 billion unsolicited bid for OpenAI’s nonprofit arm.

Beyond the staggering valuation numbers at stake here–not to mention OpenAI’s open pursuit of profits over the public good–are complicated legal and philosophical questions. Namely, what happens when corporate leaders violate the founding purpose of a firm? To discuss, Luigi and Bethany are joined by Rose Chan Loui, the founding executive director of the Lowell Milken Center on Philanthropy and Nonprofits at UCLA Law and co-author of the paper "Board Control of a Charity’s Subsidiaries: The Saga of OpenAI.” Is OpenAI a “textbook case of altruism vs. greed,” as the judge overseeing the case declared? Is AI for everyone, or only for investors? Together, they discuss how money can distort purpose and philanthropy, precedents for this case, where it might go next, and how it may shape the future of capitalism itself.

Show Notes:

Read extensive coverage of the Musk-OpenAI lawsuit on ProMarket, including Luigi’s article from March 2024: “Why Musk Is Right About OpenAI.”

Guest Disclosure (provided to The Conversation for an op-ed on the case): The authors do not work for, consult, own shares in, or receive funding from any company or organization that would benefit from this article. They have disclosed no relevant affiliations beyond their academic appointment.

0:00 37:41

Is Silicon Valley Turning Fascist?

Hosts
Bethany McLean Luigi Zingales
Guests
Curtis Yarvin JD Vance Steve Bannon Peter Thiel Marc Andreessen
Keywords
Silicon Valley Dark Enlightenment Donald Trump political philosophy authoritarian city-states accelerationism Elon Musk artificial intelligence Freedom Cities

Silicon Valley’s traditionally Democratic tech leaders are turning toward President Donald Trump, but are the reasons as straightforward as lower taxes and favorable regulations? Perhaps not, if we consider the influence of a convoluted political philosophy called the “Dark Enlightenment.” Washington and Silicon Valley power players, including Vice President JD Vance, Steve Bannon, Peter Thiel, and Marc Andreessen, have all cited the philosophy’s ideas and one of its leading developers, Curtis Yarvin. Yarvin was reportedly present at Trump’s inaugural gala as an informal guest of honor.

In a nutshell, Dark Enlightenment rejects liberal democracy as an outdated software system incompatible with freedom and progress. Instead, it argues for breaking up the nation-state into smaller authoritarian city-states, which Yarvin calls “patchworks.” These patchworks will be controlled by tech corporations and run by CEOs. The theory is attached to another idea called accelerationism, which harnesses capitalism and technology to induce radical social change. In fact, Yarvin proposed a plan he called “RAGE”—or “Retire All Government Employees”—as far back as 2012.

So, how did this obscure and oxymoronically named philosophy reach the highest echelons of business and political power? Bethany and Luigi trace the theory from its origins to its practical manifestations in Elon Musk’s Department of Government Efficiency, Silicon Valley’s race to develop artificial intelligence, and the growing push for “Freedom Cities” unfettered from federal regulations. Are the people embracing Dark Enlightenment espousing its ideas because they genuinely believe it is the way forward for humanity? Or do they believe it because it's a way for them to make money? What does it mean for capitalism and democracy if the administration runs the federal government like a tech company?

0:00 45:07

Why Trump Is Deregulating In The Wrong Way, with Sam Peltzman

Hosts
Bethany McLean Luigi Zingales
Guests
Sam Peltzman
Keywords
deregulation laissez-faire capitalism economics of regulation COVID-19 vaccine cryptocurrencies Silicon Valley Bank climate change

In President Donald Trump's recent joint address to Congress, he said, "To unshackle our economy, I have directed that for every one new regulation, ten old regulations must be eliminated." Elon Musk, whom Trump has assigned to execute this vision, has argued that it is time to get rid of all regulations, or as Musk said, “regulations, basically, should be default gone.”

Joining Bethany and Luigi to discuss this intensified commitment to deregulation and laissez-faire capitalism is Sam Peltzman, perhaps the leading living expert on the economics of regulation. Peltzman is the Ralph and Dorothy Keller Distinguished Service Professor Emeritus of Economics at the University of Chicago’s Booth School of Business and director emeritus of the Stigler Center, which sponsors this podcast and is named after his mentor, Nobel-Prize laureate George Stigler. Together, the three of them chart a historical perspective on regulation, from Stigler’s ideas of regulatory capture to the unintended consequences of deregulatory efforts over time to today’s “chainsaw” approach to gutting federal agencies. To understand the costs and benefits of regulation, they discuss how federal agencies have recently intervened in markets, if the private sector could not have accomplished these interventions more efficiently, and if these interventions did more harm than good. Their case studies include the funding, testing, and rollout of the COVID-19 vaccine, the regulation of cryptocurrencies, the management of the collapse of Silicon Valley Bank, and the role of the government in addressing climate change. In the process, they answer the trillion-dollar question: Are Trump's deregulation efforts actually efficient?

Episode Notes:

0:00 49:34

Trump’s War on Universities, with Nicholas Dirks

Hosts
Bethany McLean Luigi Zingales
Guests
Nicholas Dirks
Keywords
Trump's war on universities research funding higher education free speech diversity initiatives artificial intelligence university governance fundraising

Skyrocketing costs of attendance, declining enrollment, the advent of artificial intelligence, campus debates about free speech, and a crackdown on diversity initiatives: Today's universities are in a pickle. Adding to this pickle are President Trump's threats and actions on slashing research funding — the financial lifeline of modern universities. Last month, the Chronicle of Higher Education highlighted a new survey of a diverse group of university presidents who were asked if they “believe the Trump Administration is at war with higher education” — and 94% answered they strongly agree.

Luigi and Bethany speak to one academic leader with deep experience at the heart of these debates: Nicholas Dirks, former Chancellor of UC Berkeley (2013-2017) and author of the book, "City of Intellect: The Uses and Abuses of the University." Together, the three of them discuss which idea of the university is still valid in the 21st century, how fundraising changed the governance of higher education, and how universities might navigate the challenges of Trump's second administration.

Revisit our previous episodes:
Universities and Politics: Should They Mix? with Hanna Gray
The Economics of Student Protests

0:00 44:46

Did NIMBYs Kill the American Dream?, with Yoni Appelbaum

Hosts
Bethany McLean Luigi Zingales
Guests
Yoni Appelbaum
Keywords
homeownership American Dream mobility housing crisis Yoni Appelbaum capitalism opportunity

“Homeownership is the American Dream.” This saying is so ingrained in our zeitgeist that most Americans don't even pause to question it. However, according to the Black Knights Home Price Index, the average US home price increased nearly 80% from April 2015 to April 2023. Census data reveals that the median household income only increased by 4% during this period. Homeownership has thus become increasingly out of reach, especially for young professionals. So, how did the American Dream become an American nightmare?

In his brand new book, “Stuck: How the Privileged in the Propertied Broke the Engine of American Opportunity,” The Atlantic’s Deputy Editor Yoni Appelbaum offers a contrarian view, arguing that the crisis in American homeownership isn’t actually about cost—it’s about mobility. There are many places in America where housing remains affordable and even dirt cheap. The problem is that those affordable options are in less desirable locations, with fewer opportunities for high-quality jobs, education, and health care. Thus, young professionals continue to migrate to communities where opportunities are bountiful, but housing is not.

Appelbaum joins Bethany and Luigi to discuss how Americans got “stuck. Why does mobility matter so much? What are the implications of reduced mobility for Americans’ faith in capitalism and the belief that our country is still the land of opportunity? If treating a home as an investment—which many of us do—means less mobility, is being “stuck” so wrong for society? Together, the three of them unpack this entangled question of mobility, homeownership, and what it means for the reformulation of the American Dream.

Capitalisn't episodes mentioned:
Shattering Immigration Myths: Data Beyond Borders, with Leah Boustan
Raj Chetty's Surprising New Insights on How Children Succeed
What Happened to the American Dream? With David Leonhardt

Read an excerpt from Appelbaum's book on ProMarket (Penguin Random House)

Ratings

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4.5 rating 598 reviews

USA

4.5 ratings 512 reviews

UK

4.6 ratings 34 reviews

Canada

4.7 ratings 28 reviews

Australia

4.8 ratings 19 reviews

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4.0 ratings 2 reviews

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