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BE THAT LAWYER is for attorneys who want more freedom, enjoyment and most importantly, control in their career. Topics will include business development, marketing, branding, technology, and law firm growth. The goal is to educate, entertain and share best practices related to these topics, so that you, the listener can get real value. This is primarily an interview show with great guests (attorneys and legal marketing professionals), sharing stories and analogies, as well as engaging in personal discussions that will keep you entertained and coming back week after week.
BE THAT LAWYER is for attorneys who want more freedom, enjoyment and most importantly, control in their career. Topics will include business development, marketing, branding, technology, and law firm growth. The goal is to educate, entertain and share best practices related to these topics, so that you, the listener can get real value. This is primarily an interview show with great guests (attorneys and legal marketing professionals), sharing stories and analogies, as well as engaging in personal discussions that will keep you entertained and coming back week after week.
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Here's a quick summary of the last 5 episodes on BE THAT LAWYER.
Hosts
Steve Fretzin
Previous Guests
Kyle Hebenstreit
Kyle Hebenstreit is the Chief Executive Officer of PracticeMadePerfect (PMP), where he leads a team dedicated to helping law firms grow through tailored, data-driven marketing solutions. With nearly 20 years of experience across consulting, media, and entrepreneurship, Kyle brings a strategic mindset and a passion for client success. Before joining PMP, he held leadership roles at Deloitte Consulting, Skydance Productions, and served as an Entrepreneur in Residence at NextGen Growth Partners.
Kyle Hebenstreit is the Chief Executive Officer of PracticeMadePerfect (PMP), where he leads a team dedicated to helping law firms grow through tailored, data-driven marketing solutions. With nearly 20 years of experience across consulting, media, and entrepreneurship, Kyle brings a strategic mindset and a passion for client success. Before joining PMP, he held leadership roles at Deloitte Consulting, Skydance Productions, and served as an Entrepreneur in Residence at NextGen Growth Partners.
Ed Levy
Ed Levy is the owner and president of Edventure Promotions, a company built on two core principles: spend clients' money as if it were our own and exhaust all possibilities to deliver exceptional results. With over 20 years of experience, Ed has led the company to become a trusted partner to globally recognized brands and organizations of all sizes. He created 'I Love My PI Lawyer', a groundbreaking program that uses curated gifting experiences to help personal injury lawyers deepen client relationships, increase referrals, and stand out in a competitive market. Ed's approach emphasizes promotional products as strategic communication tools that drive measurable engagement and campaign success. He remains passionate about helping PI lawyers and professionals elevate their marketing strategies through innovative, results-driven solutions.
Ed Levy is the owner and president of Edventure Promotions, a company built on two core principles: spend clients' money as if it were our own and exhaust all possibilities to deliver exceptional results. With over 20 years of experience, Ed has led the company to become a trusted partner to globally recognized brands and organizations of all sizes. He created 'I Love My PI Lawyer', a groundbreaking program that uses curated gifting experiences to help personal injury lawyers deepen client relationships, increase referrals, and stand out in a competitive market. Ed's approach emphasizes promotional products as strategic communication tools that drive measurable engagement and campaign success. He remains passionate about helping PI lawyers and professionals elevate their marketing strategies through innovative, results-driven solutions.
Alex Geisler
Alex Geisler has had a diverse career spanning in-house legal roles, positions at Big Law firms, and work with manufacturers. He founded Lean Law, a consultancy focused on helping lawyers transform new business into repeat business. Alex offers personal coaching and has developed the Lean Adviser online curriculum, which is widely recognized. His Lean Briefing receives 40,000 hits weekly, and he has authored several books and papers on legal practice and client relationships.
Alex Geisler has had a diverse career spanning in-house legal roles, positions at Big Law firms, and work with manufacturers. He founded Lean Law, a consultancy focused on helping lawyers transform new business into repeat business. Alex offers personal coaching and has developed the Lean Adviser online curriculum, which is widely recognized. His Lean Briefing receives 40,000 hits weekly, and he has authored several books and papers on legal practice and client relationships.
Judy Barton
Judy Barton is a Senior Client Strategist for BNY Mellon Wealth Management. In this role, she works directly with clients to address their investment and wealth management needs. Judy joined the firm in 2014 and has more than 20 years of experience in the financial services industry, as well as being a business owner for 10 years. Her previous corporate experience includes serving in finance at EDS, Nortel, and Sodexho Marriott in Boston, DC, and London. Judy received her Master in Legal Studies from the School of Law at Washington University in St. Louis and a Bachelor of Science in Finance from the University of Oklahoma.
Judy Barton is a Senior Client Strategist for BNY Mellon Wealth Management. In this role, she works directly with clients to address their investment and wealth management needs. Judy joined the firm in 2014 and has more than 20 years of experience in the financial services industry, as well as being a business owner for 10 years. Her previous corporate experience includes serving in finance at EDS, Nortel, and Sodexho Marriott in Boston, DC, and London. Judy received her Master in Legal Studies from the School of Law at Washington University in St. Louis and a Bachelor of Science in Finance from the University of Oklahoma.
Michael Vater
Michael Vater, Esq., Managing Partner of The Ticktin Law Group in South Florida, has successfully litigated complex cases across the U.S. and abroad, including over 20 Florida counties, California, Texas, Pennsylvania, Ohio, South Carolina, and Iceland, where his victory set a European Union precedent on consumer rights in aviation disputes. Since joining the firm in 2010, he has specialized in entertainment, personal injury, and real estate litigation, serving as lead counsel in over 1,600 cases and litigating 100+ Jury and Non-Jury Trials. Recognized by Super Lawyers as a Rising Star, awarded to only 2.5% of Florida lawyers, he has also been featured in Authority Magazine, Lawyers of Distinction, Business Daily Media, and PacerMonitor.
Michael Vater, Esq., Managing Partner of The Ticktin Law Group in South Florida, has successfully litigated complex cases across the U.S. and abroad, including over 20 Florida counties, California, Texas, Pennsylvania, Ohio, South Carolina, and Iceland, where his victory set a European Union precedent on consumer rights in aviation disputes. Since joining the firm in 2010, he has specialized in entertainment, personal injury, and real estate litigation, serving as lead counsel in over 1,600 cases and litigating 100+ Jury and Non-Jury Trials. Recognized by Super Lawyers as a Rising Star, awarded to only 2.5% of Florida lawyers, he has also been featured in Authority Magazine, Lawyers of Distinction, Business Daily Media, and PacerMonitor.
Topics Discussed
legal industry
private equity
institutional capital
law firm growth
marketing strategy
client personas
social media
LinkedIn
Meta
referrals
client relationships
trust
engagement
networking
legal practice
personalized appreciation
promotional products
client loyalty
communication
service delivery
strategic thinking
Lean Law
TREE approach
business relationships
networking techniques
credibility
integrity
personal branding
customer-centric innovation
legal marketing
legal tech
AI
strategic partnerships
leadership
operations
legal work
generative AI
Zoom court appearances
accounts receivable
payment policies
The Sales-Free Selling Lawyer Coach, Plane Crash Survivor, Four-time Author, Host of the BE THAT LAWYER podcast. With FRETZIN, Lawyers have their best year, every year.
In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Kyle Hebenstreit discuss:
The evolving legal industry landscape due to institutional capital and Big Four involvement
Rising competition and channel fragmentation in legal marketing
Strategic marketing approaches tailored to client personas and firm types
Operational and budgetary decisions that influence long-term law firm growth
Key Takeaways:
Private equity and institutional capital are transforming the legal industry, creating new acquisition and exit opportunities for small, consumer-facing law firms.
Social media platforms like LinkedIn and Meta hold high potential for law firms, yet are underutilized, especially with organic content for referrals and paid campaigns for brand awareness.
Law firms should begin their marketing strategy by analyzing successful recent clients and understanding how they found them before setting a marketing budget.
When choosing a marketing partner, inquire about client-to-manager ratios, review actual KPIs, and check references, much like when hiring a full-time employee.
"If you're staying top of mind for your professional network... you can help augment referral traffic that way." Kyle Hebenstreit
Got a challenge growing your law practice? Email me at [email protected] with your toughest question, and I'll answer it live on the showanonymously, just using your first name!
Ready to grow your law practice without selling or chasing? Book your free 30-minute strategy session nowlet's make this your breakout year: https://fretzin.com/
About Kyle Hebenstreit: Kyle Hebenstreit is the Chief Executive Officer of PracticeMadePerfect (PMP), where he leads a team dedicated to helping law firms grow through tailored, data-driven marketing solutions. With nearly 20 years of experience across consulting, media, and entrepreneurship, Kyle brings a strategic mindset and a passion for client success. Before joining PMP, he held leadership roles at Deloitte Consulting, Skydance Productions, and served as an Entrepreneur in Residence at NextGen Growth Partners.
In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Kyle Hebenstreit discuss:
The evolving legal industry landscape due to institutional capital and Big Four involvement
Rising competition and channel fragmentation in legal marketing
Strategic marketing approaches tailored to client personas and firm types
Operational and budgetary decisions that influence long-term law firm growth
Key Takeaways:
Private equity and institutional capital are transforming the legal industry, creating new acquisition and exit opportunities for small, consumer-facing law firms.
Social media platforms like LinkedIn and Meta hold high potential for law firms, yet are underutilized, especially with organic content for referrals and paid campaigns for brand awareness.
Law firms should begin their marketing strategy by analyzing successful recent clients and understanding how they found them before setting a marketing budget.
When choosing a marketing partner, inquire about client-to-manager ratios, review actual KPIs, and check references, much like when hiring a full-time employee.
"If you're staying top of mind for your professional network... you can help augment referral traffic that way." Kyle Hebenstreit
Got a challenge growing your law practice? Email me at [email protected] with your toughest question, and I'll answer it live on the showanonymously, just using your first name!
Ready to grow your law practice without selling or chasing? Book your free 30-minute strategy session nowlet's make this your breakout year: https://fretzin.com/
About Kyle Hebenstreit: Kyle Hebenstreit is the Chief Executive Officer of PracticeMadePerfect (PMP), where he leads a team dedicated to helping law firms grow through tailored, data-driven marketing solutions. With nearly 20 years of experience across consulting, media, and entrepreneurship, Kyle brings a strategic mindset and a passion for client success. Before joining PMP, he held leadership roles at Deloitte Consulting, Skydance Productions, and served as an Entrepreneur in Residence at NextGen Growth Partners.
In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Ed Levy discuss:
Building and nurturing authentic client relationships in professional services
Increasing referrals through trust and engagement
The psychological value of personalized client appreciation
The role of networking and peer communities in growing a legal practice
Key Takeaways:
Small, personal gestureslike handwritten notes or thoughtful giftscan leave a lasting emotional impact and increase client loyalty.
Lawyers who genuinely engage with clients beyond transactions are more likely to receive organic referrals.
Membership in curated networking groups like Provisors can create structured opportunities to both give and receive high-value referrals.
Understanding what truly matters to a clientpersonally and professionallyhelps legal professionals build trust and long-term partnerships.
"The most important thing, even with no budget at all, is to separate the business from the appreciation and the emotional connections that you're trying to build." Ed Levy
Got a challenge growing your law practice? Email me at [email protected] with your toughest question, and I'll answer it live on the showanonymously, just using your first name!
Ready to grow your law practice without selling or chasing? Book your free 30-minute strategy session nowlet's make this your breakout year: https://fretzin.com/
About Ed Levy: Ed Levy is the owner and president of Edventure Promotions, a company built on two core principles: spend clients money as if it were our own and exhaust all possibilities to deliver exceptional results. With over 20 years of experience, Ed has led the company to become a trusted partner to globally recognized brands and organizations of all sizes. He created I Love My PI Lawyera groundbreaking program that uses curated gifting experiences to help personal injury lawyers deepen client relationships, increase referrals, and stand out in a competitive market. Eds approach emphasizes promotional products as strategic communication tools that drive measurable engagement and campaign success. He remains passionate about helping PI lawyers and professionals elevate their marketing strategies through innovative, results-driven solutions.
In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Ed Levy discuss:
Building and nurturing authentic client relationships in professional services
Increasing referrals through trust and engagement
The psychological value of personalized client appreciation
The role of networking and peer communities in growing a legal practice
Key Takeaways:
Small, personal gestureslike handwritten notes or thoughtful giftscan leave a lasting emotional impact and increase client loyalty.
Lawyers who genuinely engage with clients beyond transactions are more likely to receive organic referrals.
Membership in curated networking groups like Provisors can create structured opportunities to both give and receive high-value referrals.
Understanding what truly matters to a clientpersonally and professionallyhelps legal professionals build trust and long-term partnerships.
"The most important thing, even with no budget at all, is to separate the business from the appreciation and the emotional connections that you're trying to build." Ed Levy
Got a challenge growing your law practice? Email me at [email protected] with your toughest question, and I'll answer it live on the showanonymously, just using your first name!
Ready to grow your law practice without selling or chasing? Book your free 30-minute strategy session nowlet's make this your breakout year: https://fretzin.com/
About Ed Levy: Ed Levy is the owner and president of Edventure Promotions, a company built on two core principles: spend clients money as if it were our own and exhaust all possibilities to deliver exceptional results. With over 20 years of experience, Ed has led the company to become a trusted partner to globally recognized brands and organizations of all sizes. He created I Love My PI Lawyera groundbreaking program that uses curated gifting experiences to help personal injury lawyers deepen client relationships, increase referrals, and stand out in a competitive market. Eds approach emphasizes promotional products as strategic communication tools that drive measurable engagement and campaign success. He remains passionate about helping PI lawyers and professionals elevate their marketing strategies through innovative, results-driven solutions.
In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Alex Geisler discuss:
Building long-term client loyalty in legal practice
Structuring legal work around client expectations and needs
Improving legal service delivery through lean process thinking
Developing deeper relationships through proactive, strategic communication
Key Takeaways:
Long-term client loyalty is built through the TREE approach: Transparency in communication, Reliability in service, Efficiency in delivery, and clear Expectations that align with the client's goals.
Lawyers can create stronger, “stickier” client relationships by going beyond transactional work and offering value through strategic thinking and curiosity.
A structured approach to legal work—planning, executing, reviewing, and improving—can lead to better results, stronger client trust, and greater efficiency.
Understanding the client’s definition of success early on, and tailoring the legal approach accordingly, is key to exceeding expectations and retaining business.
"There's no substitute for knowing yourself and knowing your purpose. There's no substitute for knowing your client. And just keep checking in on yourself and checking in on your client." — Alex Geisler
Got a challenge growing your law practice? Email me at [email protected] with your toughest question, and I'll answer it live on the show—anonymously, just using your first name!
Ready to grow your law practice without selling or chasing? Book your free 30-minute strategy session now—let's make this your breakout year: https://fretzin.com/
About Alex Geisler: Alex's career was spent in three environments: in-house, at Big Law, and with manufacturers. He then harnessed these experiences to create Lean Law, a consultancy devoted to helping lawyers turn new business into repeat business. In addition to personal coaching, his ideas can be accessed through the acclaimed Lean Adviser online curriculum, his Lean Briefing—which receives 40,000 hits each week—and his books and papers.
In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Alex Geisler discuss:
Building long-term client loyalty in legal practice
Structuring legal work around client expectations and needs
Improving legal service delivery through lean process thinking
Developing deeper relationships through proactive, strategic communication
Key Takeaways:
Long-term client loyalty is built through the TREE approach: Transparency in communication, Reliability in service, Efficiency in delivery, and clear Expectations that align with the client's goals.
Lawyers can create stronger, “stickier” client relationships by going beyond transactional work and offering value through strategic thinking and curiosity.
A structured approach to legal work—planning, executing, reviewing, and improving—can lead to better results, stronger client trust, and greater efficiency.
Understanding the client’s definition of success early on, and tailoring the legal approach accordingly, is key to exceeding expectations and retaining business.
"There's no substitute for knowing yourself and knowing your purpose. There's no substitute for knowing your client. And just keep checking in on yourself and checking in on your client." — Alex Geisler
Got a challenge growing your law practice? Email me at [email protected] with your toughest question, and I'll answer it live on the show—anonymously, just using your first name!
Ready to grow your law practice without selling or chasing? Book your free 30-minute strategy session now—let's make this your breakout year: https://fretzin.com/
About Alex Geisler: Alex's career was spent in three environments: in-house, at Big Law, and with manufacturers. He then harnessed these experiences to create Lean Law, a consultancy devoted to helping lawyers turn new business into repeat business. In addition to personal coaching, his ideas can be accessed through the acclaimed Lean Adviser online curriculum, his Lean Briefing—which receives 40,000 hits each week—and his books and papers.
Judy Barton: Lessons in Business Adaptation and Customer-Centric Innovation
Hosts
Hosts of this podcast episode
Steve Fretzin
Guests
Guests of this podcast episode
Judy Barton
Keywords
Keywords of this podcast episode
business relationshipsnetworking techniquescredibilityintegritypersonal brandingcustomer-centric innovation
In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Judy Barton discuss:
Cultivating meaningful and lasting business relationships
Effective networking techniques for lawyers and financial professionals
Establishing credibility and attracting opportunities
The importance of integrity in business
Key Takeaways:
Effective networking is not about collecting contacts but about fostering genuine, mutually beneficial relationships that lead to long-term success.
Lawyers and financial professionals should focus on providing value first, rather than immediately seeking business, to build trust and credibility.
Personal branding plays a crucial role in professional growth, as a strong and authentic presence can differentiate individuals in competitive industries.
Integrity and consistency in business interactions build a solid reputation, making people more likely to refer and work with you over time.
"You have to make yourself memorable, but you also have to know why you're different from everybody else and why that person should hire you or engage with you as an attorney." — Judy Barton
Got a challenge growing your law practice? Email me at [email protected] with your toughest question, and I'll answer it live on the show—anonymously, just using your first name!
Each week, Raise the Bar delivers expert insights on business development, legal tech, and the strategies top rainmakers lawyers use to build thriving practices. No fluff—just actionable tips to help you work smarter and grow faster. Subscribe for free at RaiseTheBarMedia.co: https://content.raisethebarmedia.co/raise-the-bar-newsletter-sign-up/?cid=679b5ad89eeed
About Judy Barton: Judy Barton is a Senior Client Strategist for BNY Mellon Wealth Management. In this role, she works directly with clients to address their investment and wealth management needs. Judy joined the firm in 2014 and has more than 20 years of experience in the financial services industry, as well as being a business owner for 10 years. Her previous corporate experience includes serving in finance at EDS, Nortel, and Sodexho Marriott in Boston, DC, and London. Judy received her Master in Legal Studies from the School of Law at Washington University in St. Louis and a Bachelor of Science in Finance from the University of Oklahoma.
In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Judy Barton discuss:
Cultivating meaningful and lasting business relationships
Effective networking techniques for lawyers and financial professionals
Establishing credibility and attracting opportunities
The importance of integrity in business
Key Takeaways:
Effective networking is not about collecting contacts but about fostering genuine, mutually beneficial relationships that lead to long-term success.
Lawyers and financial professionals should focus on providing value first, rather than immediately seeking business, to build trust and credibility.
Personal branding plays a crucial role in professional growth, as a strong and authentic presence can differentiate individuals in competitive industries.
Integrity and consistency in business interactions build a solid reputation, making people more likely to refer and work with you over time.
"You have to make yourself memorable, but you also have to know why you're different from everybody else and why that person should hire you or engage with you as an attorney." — Judy Barton
Got a challenge growing your law practice? Email me at [email protected] with your toughest question, and I'll answer it live on the show—anonymously, just using your first name!
Each week, Raise the Bar delivers expert insights on business development, legal tech, and the strategies top rainmakers lawyers use to build thriving practices. No fluff—just actionable tips to help you work smarter and grow faster. Subscribe for free at RaiseTheBarMedia.co: https://content.raisethebarmedia.co/raise-the-bar-newsletter-sign-up/?cid=679b5ad89eeed
About Judy Barton: Judy Barton is a Senior Client Strategist for BNY Mellon Wealth Management. In this role, she works directly with clients to address their investment and wealth management needs. Judy joined the firm in 2014 and has more than 20 years of experience in the financial services industry, as well as being a business owner for 10 years. Her previous corporate experience includes serving in finance at EDS, Nortel, and Sodexho Marriott in Boston, DC, and London. Judy received her Master in Legal Studies from the School of Law at Washington University in St. Louis and a Bachelor of Science in Finance from the University of Oklahoma.
In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Michael Vater discuss:
Growth and networking beyond traditional legal marketing
Leveraging legal tech and AI to enhance efficiency
Building strategic partnerships for sustainable growth
Effectively balancing leadership, operations, and legal work
Key Takeaways:
Lawyers should build strategic partnerships with realtors, title agents, and medical professionals who connect with potential clients needing legal services instead of relying solely on attorney referrals.
Generative AI tools enhance legal research by cross-referencing case law and statutes, helping attorneys find crucial precedents faster and more accurately.
Zoom court appearances reduce travel time and create "bonus time" for attorneys to focus on business development and client acquisition.
Law firms often let accounts receivable grow unchecked, but strict payment policies like upfront retainers or automated billing prevent financial strain and ensure cash flow.
"The world is constantly changing. If you fail to change with it, you will be left behind." — Michael Vater
Got a challenge growing your law practice? Email me at [email protected] with your toughest question, and I'll answer it live on the show—anonymously, just using your first name!
Each week, Raise the Bar delivers expert insights on business development, legal tech, and the strategies top rainmakers lawyers use to build thriving practices. No fluff—just actionable tips to help you work smarter and grow faster. Subscribe for free at RaiseTheBarMedia.co: https://content.raisethebarmedia.co/raise-the-bar-newsletter-sign-up/?cid=679b5ad89eeed
About Michael Vater: Michael Vater, Esq., Managing Partner of The Ticktin Law Group in South Florida, has successfully litigated complex cases across the U.S. and abroad, including over 20 Florida counties, California, Texas, Pennsylvania, Ohio, South Carolina, and Iceland, where his victory set a European Union precedent on consumer rights in aviation disputes. Since joining the firm in 2010, he has specialized in entertainment, personal injury, and real estate litigation, serving as lead counsel in over 1,600 cases and litigating 100+ Jury and Non-Jury Trials. Recognized by Super Lawyers as a Rising Star, awarded to only 2.5% of Florida lawyers, he has also been featured in Authority Magazine, Lawyers of Distinction, Business Daily Media, and PacerMonitor.
In this episode, Steve Fretzin and Michael Vater discuss:
Growth and networking beyond traditional legal marketing
Leveraging legal tech and AI to enhance efficiency
Building strategic partnerships for sustainable growth
Effectively balancing leadership, operations, and legal work
Key Takeaways:
Lawyers should build strategic partnerships with realtors, title agents, and medical professionals who connect with potential clients needing legal services instead of relying solely on attorney referrals.
Generative AI tools enhance legal research by cross-referencing case law and statutes, helping attorneys find crucial precedents faster and more accurately.
Zoom court appearances reduce travel time and create "bonus time" for attorneys to focus on business development and client acquisition.
Law firms often let accounts receivable grow unchecked, but strict payment policies like upfront retainers or automated billing prevent financial strain and ensure cash flow.
"The world is constantly changing. If you fail to change with it, you will be left behind." — Michael Vater
Got a challenge growing your law practice? Email me at [email protected] with your toughest question, and I'll answer it live on the show—anonymously, just using your first name!
Each week, Raise the Bar delivers expert insights on business development, legal tech, and the strategies top rainmakers lawyers use to build thriving practices. No fluff—just actionable tips to help you work smarter and grow faster. Subscribe for free at RaiseTheBarMedia.co: https://content.raisethebarmedia.co/raise-the-bar-newsletter-sign-up/?cid=679b5ad89eeed
About Michael Vater: Michael Vater, Esq., Managing Partner of The Ticktin Law Group in South Florida, has successfully litigated complex cases across the U.S. and abroad, including over 20 Florida counties, California, Texas, Pennsylvania, Ohio, South Carolina, and Iceland, where his victory set a European Union precedent on consumer rights in aviation disputes. Since joining the firm in 2010, he has specialized in entertainment, personal injury, and real estate litigation, serving as lead counsel in over 1,600 cases and litigating 100+ Jury and Non-Jury Trials. Recognized by Super Lawyers as a Rising Star, awarded to only 2.5% of Florida lawyers, he has also been featured in Authority Magazine, Lawyers of Distinction, Business Daily Media, and PacerMonitor.
